Lucy:   Be real Vanessa!  You and Scaughdt try and uphold what the Word of God does not!  If they are married, then that goes against what God has said to be marriage … Yes, there are all kinds of sinners in church, but it is the preacher’s job to point out that you cannot live in sin, and that you must be born again, and that you have to repent and turn away from sin; not indulge in it!

 

Another reason: I will not go to any church that teaches that sin is OK with God!  Tell me what kind of example they are setting on behalf of God’s Word — that the act of homosexual sex is right in the eyes of God.  The Word of God is very clear on this matter.  Read it for yourself …  You can distort it as Scaughdt does if you wish.  The problem is you refuse to see that sin is the problem, and you try to make allowances for it.  God has told us through his Word what sin is.   Why can’t you accept it and try to lead the sinner to Christ to be born again, and thereby be assured of their salvation?  These preachers are living in sin, and setting a bad example for their congregation, namely, that God accepts their relationship as being holy.  This is not what I say, it comes from God’s Word.

 

“There is much talk of how God loves us, is rich in mercy, is kind and forgiving. And all of these things are true. But another essential truth is that these gifts, these essential attributes of God, are accessed by repentance.  It is repentance that opens the door to mercy, forgiveness, and kindness …  Preachers and teachers in the church, who are Christ’s witnesses, must proclaim repentance that unlocks the forgiveness and mercy of God.”

 

Preachers should not uphold sin and say it is fine, or that we can live in our lustful sinful ways without consequence, or that God accepts homosexuality as a holy way of life.  They are preaching another Jesus to say that what they are doing is acceptable to God.  What a poor example they are setting … It is not of God !!!!!

 

 

Vanessa:   Sheesh, Lucy!   I’m not sure what Word of God you feel I am not upholding … Seriously, I am upholding the word of Jesus, my dear – specifically Matthew 22:39, which tells us quite plainly to “Love your neighbor as yourself.”  Those are Jesus’ words, Lucy.  So are you Loving those who are gay by making assumptions concerning their character that could possibly be incorrect; by condemning them as if it were your job to do so?  Are those Loving traits?  Please, follow the words of Jesus … I can promise that you will see Good Fruit come from them.

 

Bart:   Can you honestly say they are in full repentance?  And that they are setting an example of repentance through their life?  Are you in full repentance of eating meat?  If I were considering becoming a vegan should I take advice from you or someone with a pork chop in their hand?  You have assumed that we would not attend their church solely on the basis that they are gay, and that is a lie by assumption.  You talk of God’s perfect Love, but it is not its purity that makes His Love perfect.  You have one hand in a perfect and pure spiritual world and the other in an impure and imperfect world and are trying to bring them together … IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, because when the two hands come together there will be a loud BOOM and the hand of purity will will defeat the other.  Did you watch the video of the gay guy I put up, or are you afraid you may find the truth in it about repentance?

 

Vanessa:  (sigh) Wow, Bart!  That was some ramble … Here are my thoughts:

 

One)   Bart: “Can you honestly say they are in full repentance?”

My Answer:  I’m really surprised you’re asking me this, as none of us are fully capable of stating whether or not another person is or is not in full repentance. Therefore the more appropriate question here is:  Can you honestly say they aren’t?
Two)  Bart: “And are [they] setting an example of repentance through their life?”

My Answer: I would go, sit through (and listen to) their sermon, get to know them, and then see what fruit grows from my LOVING them.
Three)  Bart: “Are you in full repentance of eating meat?”

My Answer:   Yes I am – are YOU???  Of course not, and yet that is your business, and my job is to simply LOVE you regardless.
Four)  Bart: “You have assumed that we would not attend their church solely on the basis that they are gay, and that is a lie by assumption.”

My Answer:  Are you kidding me?!?!?   Seriously, Bart?  Perhaps you need to go and re-read your own words from this thread, Bart; a thread which YOU initiated!
Five)  Bart: “You talk of God’s perfect Love, but it is not its purity that makes His Love perfect.  You have one hand in a perfect and pure spiritual world and the other in an impure and imperfect world and are trying to bring them together … IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.”

My Answer:   Did Jesus say to not follow his way because it would be mixing God’s perfect Love with an impure world?  I don’t think so, Friend.
 

Six)  Bart: “Did you watch the video [I posted]?”

My Answer:  Yes, I did.  And if one person is scolded for being gay, do you think everyone is going to just stop being how they were born to be …. or do you think they might just say they aren’t gay in order to avoid the persecution?  Both could be possible, and yet once again, the point is that you don’t truly know what goes on behind others’ closed doors.

Bart:   Vanessa, how about you showing me my own words? … If you are truly following Jesus then you would know that HIS pure and perfect Kingdom is not of this world – those are HIS WORDS.  You  don’t truly know what goes on behind closed doors.   God does, and that’s where  my trust is.  He has never failed to guide me in the right direction.

 

Can I honestly say they aren’t?  YES I can, solely on the example they are setting in their own life.  Do I hate them?  Do I judge them?  Do I condemn them?  NO!  And you can’t prove otherwise … Should I have to prove this to you or them out of fear of being called a bigot or anything else – or to show that I love them?  NO!

 

You appear to show distrust when you ask how do we know this or that.  That alone should be enough.  But don’t ask me; ask God — He knows everything.  And if you are truly sincere He will give you the answer.  He hasn’t failed me ever, and He NEVER WILL.

 

You say we should know their heart?  Think about that the next time you judge ours.  After all, you don’t know — YOUR WORDS!

 

Scaughdt:   Bart, if you were truly a devout follower of Jesus Christ then you would follow his words, n’est ce pas? … Indeed, the fact that none of us know what sins Oliver Clyde Allen (or any other preacher, for that matter) is or is not committing in the privacy of his own home is exactly why Jesus issued the following commandments – commandments, I might add, that you & yours are violating fully & frequently!

 

My dear Friend, please take a moment to reconsider the Word of God …

 

“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.  Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own? … You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to identify the speck in your neighbor’s.” ~ Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:1-5)

 

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” ~ Jesus Christ (Luke 6:37-38)

 

“You hypocrite, take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck of sawdust from your brother’s eye…. How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own?” ~ Jesus Christ (Luke 6:41-42)

 

“When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’  And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground.  When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.  Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”   She said, “No one, sir.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you.” ~ John 8:7-11

 

“Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in Heaven.” ~ Jesus Christ (Matthew 6:1)

And Lucy, while you once again raise a number of interesting points that I will soon address specifically, you have also once again repeated almost exactly the same misstatements that I have already clarified in my recent comments – AND by doing so have once again distracted us from the point at hand – and that point, again, is the following: according to the Bible itself, Homosexuality – is — NOT – a – SIN!   Indeed, you have admitted this fact yourself on two separate occasions in this thread alone (see pages 118 & 122 previously), and it is good that you did so, for a woman who believes in “the whole Bible” must do so – because not a single verse in the entire Bible condemns either homosexuality itself or homosexual relationships in any form or fashion!
So, my dear Friend, aside from the fact that “correcting” another’s sin is exactly the judgment that Jesus wants us all to avoid at all costs (especially when singling out the sins of some while ignoring the sins of others – a.k.a. bigotry, and especially when judging the sins of others while being steeped in sin ourselves – a.k.a. hypocrisy; see Matthew 7:1-2, Matthew 23:25-26, Matthew 18:3-4, John 8:7 etc etc etc), in the case at hand THERE IS NO SIN THAT NEEDS CORRECTING!
Indeed, you claim to be a woman who follows “the whole Bible”, and yet what we have here is you simply making Scripture up on the spot to justify your own personal beliefs about – and obvious bigoted dislike of – homosexuals & homosexuality … You claim that “I will not go and listen to an openly practicing gay preacher because his disrespect for the word of God”, and yet nowhere have you provided one shred of evidence showing how either Bishop Allen or his husband have disrespected God in any way … Indeed, if we read about them in any detail at all [see page 218], we discover much evidence to the contrary – that they are as devout in their worship of the Lord as you ever will be, and that they are just as sincere followers of Christ as you & yours.

 

As such, allow me to repeat the very clear FACT that this display of obvious discrimination is flagrant bigotry on your part, and that such callous & judgmental arrogance is a direct affront to the teachings of your own Lord & Savior.
As always, I send the Peace of Christ to you & yours … May you find it one day in your Heart to follow his teachings and Love others in harmony with his Way … Amen.

 

P.S.  Speaking the Word of God does not make you a bigot, my Friend – and yet worshiping a bigoted interpretation of the Word of God most certainly is a form of bigotry … Speaking the Word of God does not make you a hypocrite – and yet speaking out against the sins of some while ignoring the sins of self & others most certainl is hypocritical … Peace!

Filed under: Burnishing Bigotry by Scaughdt